Errors-To: owner-dead-of-night@cogs.susx.ac.uk Reply-To: dead-of-night-request@cogs.susx.ac.uk Precedence: bulk From: dead-of-night-request@cogs.susx.ac.uk To: dead-of-night@cogs.susx.ac.uk Subject: In the Dead of Night of 05/27/97 (#125) I N T H E D E A D O F N I G H T The electronic mailing list dedicated to the music of UK and its members, past & present ========================================================== Issue number 125 ========================================================== Tuesday, 27 May 1997 Today's Topics: Jeff Preston/Paul Kohler tiff Passing Wind "WIND" Unposted note to jeff preston That Smokin Tell All Letter to ITDON! "WIND" Re: Asia samplers? Asia CD Samplers Re: In the Dead of Night of 05/06/97 (#122) Wetton =========================================================== From: Steve_Vaughan@ilink.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 12 May 97 13:30:50 GMT Subject: Jeff Preston/Paul Kohler tiff Paul Kohler wrote :- > > rant rant rant, I think we all know which clip I'm referring to.. > Owch! I don't often de-lurk to take part in such tiffs, but that was a hell of a rant Paul. Imagine you were in a band and you wanted to produce a live CD. Which would you rather ? :- a) Doing a tour, recording the dates, picking the best recordings & renditions of your music, being involved in any mixing, editing, overdubbing (yup, we're all grown-ups here, I'm afraid it happens), submitting the tapes to a record company, seeing it released. b) Finding out through word of mouth that someone has some old tapes of some gig you did, they've released it, and you'll get some cheques in the post. Apply your percentage officalness to both these options. Steve Vaughan =========================================================== From: Jeff Preston Subject: Passing Wind Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:05:00 -0600 >From: "Wind" >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:16:52 -0500 >Subject: Re:(#123) >I'm just gonna jump in here. The reason for discussing Allan on the UK >site and not Jeff Preston's or Paul Kohler's is this: Jeff Preston won't >allow Paul's comments on his site. That isn't true. You can look at the Atavachron archives and find plenty of postings from Paul Kohler. Has Paul sent anything in recently? No, not since I demanded that he remove image files from his site which he copied and used on his site without my permission, and the permission of at least one of the photographers. But let's get to the brass tacks: Yes, I do reserve the right to not distribute submissions to Atavachron which, in my opinion, help others to obtain bootleg recordings. That policy applies to Paul Kohler, as well as to anyone else who makes a submission. That is not a secret -- it is plainly stated on the Web site's subscription form, and again in the "welcome" message that subscribers receive to confirm their subscriptions. No one is being forced to make use of the Atavachron resources, y'know. Don't like it? Go elsewhere... and optionally (if the shoe fits), whine. :) No self-respecting print-media editor on the planet gives carte blanche to their contributing writers -- what I do is no different (except that in Atavachron's case, the rules are plainly state up-front, perhaps). You can beat that strawman all day, if you like, but it has nothing to do with your rights vs. those of the artist. Isn't this the real issue -- fans' rights vs. artists' rights? >Paul would probably love to talk some >sense into Jeff but Jeff is so caught up in wearing the mantle of >Official Moderator of the OFFICIAL Allan Holdsworth Site that, in this >role, he has become nothing more than a mouthpiece and has lost any >sense of individuality as an independent thinker. Either that, or I'm acting as a friend might, when another friend is being exploited (and worse, by people who would otherwise be mutual friends). Unfortunately, some "friends" can only ask, "What's in this for me?" Fair-weather, anyone? >Sorry for the blunt >talk, but I have to tell the truth here. An example of this "Party Line" >Jeff and Allan inflict on fans is this new tale of disinformation that >Tokyo Dream was a horrible performance. I don't think matters of opinion can really be considered "disinformation"; it is certainly *my* opinion that this performance is way below par -- and if everyone with an opinion is to be perceived as a propagandist, *I'm* not the only one dropping leaflets, here! But as Paul will attest (he *did* see it in print once, so it MUST be TRUE!), I have only seen Allan five times (all after 1991... maybe Allan *really* improved between 1984 and 1991!). :) But again, all this is beside-the-point. Our opinions about this work aren't a consideration in the question of whether it should even *exist*. If all parties had honored the contractual agreement, we wouldn't be having this discussion. >FACT: After every performance, >Holdsworth ritually, publicly, complains about how badly he just played >- eyes rolling, and everything. HE HATES. This is why his words should >be not be listened to the way one should expect to communicate to a >reasonable person. He IS a musical genius but has so alienated his >listening audience by being overly critical. The only way I, personally, >have found to deal with someone like this is to totally appreciate their >music on the one hand but totally dismiss their words as the ravings of >an unstable artiste on the other: >'Yes, yes, Allan, that makes perfect sense - YOU are absolutely right.' In other words, he is somehow "mentally incompetent," and because of this, people should feel free to take advantage of whatever work he produces... regardless of how he or his family feel about it. I suppose Allan Holdsworth is simply another commodity to be traded -- not a living human being, worthy of your respect. After all, if he's stupid enough to actually *perform*, he should *expect* this treatment, right? >I have about "had it" with the primadonna attitudes of artists like >Holdsworth, Jobson and Wetton. Perhaps you should concentrate less on what you perceive as these artists' shortcomings, and examine why you have not applied yourself to *creating* the kinds of music you enjoy (where you could rightfully market and distribute *your* works under whatever ethical licensure you wished). >I'm even getting a wee bit tired of >Fripp's - but I will continue to listen to his and their music. To paraphrase, "I'm sick and tired of it... but I'll pretend that their thoughts on the matter don't apply, and I'll continue to enjoy whatever I can squeeze out of them. In fact, I'll even go out of my way to *convince others* that they have every right to do the same!" The terms "audacity" and "ingrate" come immediately to mind... >A >similar drama is playing out with the current breakup of Yes. People >tend to give too much importance to others' personalities and not their >music. The problem arises when some fans get penalized for just being >themselves and appreciating the music in all its facets. Actually, the problem begins when people try to assert that their selfishness supercedes the artist's right to have a measure of control over their own work. Do you honestly believe you have a right to *any* of Allan Holdsworth's work -- work that *could not exist* without his efforts -- over any objections he may have? If so, I'd like to see your unique ethical hypothesis in this regard (though I will not hold my breath... the arguments thusfar presented by "Mr. Wind" consist almost wholly of personal attacks on me, and the way I choose to operate the Atavachron resources). >Jeff Preston >will not allow ANY talk of these matters on his page. Paul, however, >welcomes it. I know that after Jeff reads my honest opinions, here, I >will be shut out of Atavachron forever, like Paul has been. Jeff is >Allan/Allan is Jeff. No one is asking you to use the resources (in fact, if you find Paul's resources more valuable, I would shed no tears if you never visited Atavachron again... but seeing the huge amount of contributions you've made to the digest, I would worry greatly about the rest of the subscribers, trying desperately to fill the vacuum you'd leave), but no one is denying you the use of them, either. >I don't know IF the LIVE! album is official. When the clue phone rings, pick up. http://www.bmi.com/ . Check the tunes against the database; simple. Don't just take Kohler's buddy's word -- check out all nine tunes for yourself. >It >does not matter because I own the official video. The one that the Japanese production company escaped with, in breach-of-contract, you mean? Hey, at least you didn't use caps this time... oh, er... sorry, "Wind"; I almost confused you with someone else! ;) >Further, I maintain >that the greater harm is Allan's effort to prevent distribution of Tokyo >Dream on Laserdisc than all of Holdsworth's bootleggers You could conceivably maintain any number of notions about Allan's work, but the fact (sorry: FACT!) remains that you have *no* rights which supercede Allan's in regard to the disposition of said work. Correct me if I'm wrong (again, no breath-holding). If Allan wanted to wreck his career entirely, it would be *his* choice -- not yours, or anyone else's. Man, there are at least a *dozen* things Allan Holdsworth has done in the career-decision department that *I* would have done differently -- and anyone who follows the Atavachron digest will tell you that I am *far* from total agreement with Allan on a number of issues. However, I don't use our disagreement as some kind of sorry excuse to take (or aid *others* to take) from Allan items that he will not give of his own free will. How easy would that be? *I could*, you know. Hey, I happen to be quite a fan of Allan Holdsworth's music, these past 19 years. I've even done favors for Allan that not many could. Surely, he *owes* me, right? Sorry... I have too much respect for people's right to self-determination to concoct this delusion. I would even respect *your* right to control over your own work. >(let's get real >and call them Chronographers from here on out) Real? If Allan Holdsworth wants a "chronographer," let him hire (or consentually acquire) one. Who are these people whose rights supposedly supercede those of the artist -- these people who feel they needn't respect an artist's request to tape them without permission? I'll tell you: Selfish, maladjusted people, not unlike those who rummage through the trash of their favorite celebrities. They fish for Holy Grails that they can claim as "rarities," and hold up before other "true believers" as something to behold! ("Oh, won't my pitiful compatriots be *envious*..."; one might wonder aloud that this is the primary motivation for certain entire websites, hm?) , etc. These noble aspirations to officious historianship are nothing short of shopworn rationalizations to commit thievery, IMO. Now we *might* have something to discuss if you're starting a scholarship fund for Allan's kids (even though I'm not Catholic, and don't rely on this pennance thing), but I do have trouble putting you in that picture. >Allan, in >sharp rejection of his fans' wishes, destroyed the masters of what would >become his definitive LIVE! album almost 3 years ago. [Allan, I'm telling >on you now] I won't even say the method of its destruction as it might >cause repercussions. But it was not pretty. Paul told you the story about the dog, then? :) I don't know if it's true, but it's immaterial -- he had every right to do as he pleased with the tapes. And, y'never know... he may have been out of dog food that day (hey, iron oxide... some nutritional value, there). :) >A LIVE! show contains a >special kind of communication between the artist and an audience of >open-hearted souls. A golden nugget of truth springs forth! Yes! >Chronographers promote that relationship. No; they exploit the fact that there is little an artist can do to prevent it from happening without the artist's consent. They prevent the artist from having proper editorial rights over inferior material. They violate the law (in most cases; check the back of your tickets, folks), as well as all ethical considerations of respect for the artist (by not soliciting the artist's consent to be "immortalized" in this manner). >As a guitarist and devoted Holdsworth audience for over 18 years (I also >collect every LIVE! tape I can get my hands on), I must add that Tokyo >Dream is an AWESOME - "Must Have" - show. Yes, Allan can be MORE vicious >- but this was a more devotional performance to his enthusiastically >appreciative Japanese devotees. That makes it pretty clear that you have not talked to Allan about this performance. Though neither of us have the advantage of being in Allan's head that night, I doubt very seriously if "devotion" played any role in that performance whatever. More likely, it was 90% nervousness, brought on by the fact that it was the first night in Tokyo for the tour... and the knowledge that it was being taped (but presumably, he would have four more opportunities to "make good," if only the production company had honored their end of the contract). >Finally, In The Dead of Night can be an >appropriate forum to discuss Allan because without Allan, UK is just >Asia. Hee hee! :) Good one! >I wish Allan and his phone pal Jeff would just relent and >understand that chronicling , aw hell, bootlegging, is the ultimate kind >of support for such an underground artist as he if album sales are not >sacrificed (and in my experience, album sales as well as ticket sales >are INCREASED). Musical statements have been made in a LIVE! context >without which the world would be a far inferior thing. I'm standing up >for what I believe in and coming out of the closet: Stand up, sit down... shake your booty -- none of this is relevant until you explain how you, Devoted-Fan-That- You-So-Fervently-Believe-Yourself-To-Be, have more right to something than the actual *creator* of that something. Please pay particular attention to the additional fact that this creator is unwilling to either give, trade, sell or otherwise assign that something to you. Explain this "right," and barring arguments concerning preservation of life or limb, I believe you will be accomplishing something as yet unaccomplished. >*I declare my Right to record for posterity any event I may attend with >any medium I deem necessary* Heh... well, I declare my right to follow you around with recording devices, and to share the resulting "chronography" with your friends, family... hell, anyone who will buy or trade for the crap. :) Btw, they *do* have effective medications available for that flatulence... ;) >Music History and future generations will value our few recordings of >virtuosi despite this scourge we (erroneously) call intellectual >property. I wonder if you would feel this way if you were making this posting from a work-related address. Surely your boss would have a right to know what usage you make of the 'net during business hours...? After all, after you share your words with any "audience,", they're not yours anymore, right? >P.S. if you don't own at least one LIVE! Allan Holdsworth tape then you >have wimped-out on life. Grab the brass ring. You really don't know what >you're missing. You're definitely missing the need to make lame justifications for stealing, at the very least. Here is an open note to Ron, the esteemed moderator of this forum (and please, feel free to include it in my post to ITDON): I have had enough of these people trying to make it appear as if I do not welcome their weak attempts at rationalizing their enjoyment of misappropriated intellectual property -- specifically, that of Allan Holdsworth's. I will, by week's end, set up a section of the Atavachron Web site, where we can debate this for years, if need be. I do agree that while ITDON may not be an entirely inappropriate forum for the ongoing discussion, it is rude and inconsiderate of the participants to foist it upon its subscribers these somewhat-peripheral issues. All I would ask of you, Ron, is that you post this rebuttal [Done.] (since the posting which prompted it was such a rousing, personal attack on my character), [You should have seen the ones that I didn't publish! :-)] and to also post the URL for the new site in the next ITDON digest. [Well, you didn't send it to me, but I found it: http://www.addimension.com/atav/docs/boot.html] This will hopefully move the discussion to a more appropriate forum, and be suitable for all involved. There *will* be some ground rules for this new site, though; the main one will be that specific references to Holdsworth bootlegs will be replaced with something like "[A.H. bootleg]"; the specific names, sources, etc., for these should not be of material importance in any argument of merit that I can foresee, though I would privately entertain any such assertion), and; all participants, save myself, will maintain complete anonymity (this should meet with the approval of most "bootleg enthusiasts," but if they don't like either stipulation, they don't have to play). Jeff =========================================================== Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:57:26 -0400 (EDT) From: WDCKdarin@aol.com Subject: "WIND" Shouldn't that be "Passing Wind"? =========================================================== Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:56:58 -0700 From: "Phil J. Burno" Subject: Unposted note to jeff preston Ron, I agree with you about my comments in the letter to Jeff Preston and that it shouldn't have been posted. I apologise for this. I will be much more mindful in the future. However I did forward that note directly to Jeff. Not that it matters. After reading a posting from another person (WIND)in the latest ITDON, I don't stand a chance with Jeff. This subject dose make me sit down and think a little more about the subject of Bootlegging in general. Maybe we all should. Thanks again for a great forum, Phil B. P.S. You can post this if you think it may help cool things down a bit on the subject :) =========================================================== Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:21:20 -0700 From: "Phil J. Burno" Subject: That Smokin Tell All Letter to ITDON! WIND, I wrote a simular letter to Jeff about this STUPIDITY and Ron wouldn't post it. I totally understand his desicion. Your posting was facinating! I had no idea that Jeff and Paul had this running feud. And tell me. How did you find out all that stuff about how Allen destroyed the Tokyo Dreams masters? And what DID he do? When I was a student at GIT in Hollywood, Allen played sideman for Bunny Brunnel for free just to get back the Boot video that Pat Hicks aquired for his students to enjoy. So I Know that Allen has gone to great lengths to destroy this stuff! I also want to tell you that I agree with you regarding Allen's attitude about his playing. I read an interview of Jimmy Johnson some years ago in which he once told Allen during some pre-production phase of one of the albums to STOP ERASING STUFF!! The more I think of it, Allen should stop doing all live performances and do only studio Albums with no risk of being seen or bootlegged. I just don't know......... Phil(It's Late)Burno =========================================================== From: "Wind" Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:49:02 -0500 Subject: "WIND" From: WDCKdarin@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:57:26 -0400 (EDT) To: dead-of-night-request@cogs.susx.ac.uk Subject: "WIND" Shouldn't that be "Passing Wind"? -- Wind *************************************** Visit Mythic Guitars Online at: http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/winds *************************************** =========================================================== Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:22:46 +0100 From: Anne Marie Hill Subject: Re: Asia samplers? Dear Ron,we are now in a position to send the samplers out by post,this will be undertaken and started within the next 7/10 days so we anticipate a waiting time of approx 14/21 days,we hope that this puts your readers minds at rest. In message <33721DB7.2F13@cogs.susx.ac.uk>, Ron Chrisley writes >Rob, Anne, > >Several people on the UK mailing list which I run, including myself, >are a bit concerned that we sent you cash for the Asia samplers, >as you instructed, but have not received anything yet. Would you >like to say a few reassuring words that I can post to the list? > >Cheers, > >Ron Best Regards Anne Marie Hill Web address: http://webworlds.net/the-wilderness/ Credit Card Hotline: (0)191 512 1109 (24 hrs - automated answering machine between 3:30pm and 9am GMT) Freephone UK: 0500 829262 Freephone USA: 1 800 567 9185 Freephone Germany: 0130 818502 Fax Hotline: (0)191 512 1104 USA ADDRESS: Resurgence, 61 East 8th Street, 189 Greenwich Village, NY 10003, USA UK ADDRESS: P O Box 50, Houghton-le-Spring, Tyne & Wear DH4 5YP =========================================================== Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:07:16 -0400 From: Dave Gallant (by way of Dave Gallant ) Subject: Asia CD Samplers Good Monday afternoon! I just finished speaking with the good people at Voiceprint Records, and according to them they have started sending out the promo CD samplers to those who have ordered them. There was a delay (due to the Eddie Jobson - UK situation), as there are 2 UK live tracks on the CD. They hope to be able to fulfill all of the orders that have been received so far. Please do not send them any further orders for the $1 CD offer, as they will most likely not be able to fill any new orders. Dave PS: Look for a special e-mail soon on Asia's next studio album! There is a tentative release date for Japan, but that's all I can say for now! **************************** Dave Gallant Lori Adams dave@clo.com **************************** =========================================================== Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 06:51:13 -0400 From: Jens Johansson Subject: Re: In the Dead of Night of 05/06/97 (#122) > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:48:45 -0500 > From: paulkohler@enter.net (PAUL KOHLER) > Subject: Re: In the Dead of Night of 04/29/97 (#121) > Sorry to say Jeff but Paul Williams does share song writing credits on some > of those songs. He wrote the lyrics to most, if not all of those tunes. > Here are the facts folks: > > These are the actual copyright numbers that are on file!! > > PA-291-247 "Panic Stations" Allan Holdsworth/Paul Williams Yarlett [...] > SRu-46-884 "Was There?" Paul Williams Yarlett/Allan Holdsworth > So, what have we learned from all > of this? A commonly misunderstood legal point here: "Writing credits" (mechanical rights) are completely separate from rights to the actual performance. The issue is often confused because people often write the material they perform. But for instance, if Paul McCartney did a concert with only Paul Williams covers, it wouldn't mean that Paul Williams could sell it to a record company so they could release it as "PAUL MCCARTNEY IN JAPAN" and slap a picture of the Beatles on the cover. As a matter of fact, I would imagine the record company, the pressing plant, the distributor, and Paul Williams himself would hear from McCartney's lawyer fairly quickly. They'd be slapped with lawsuits before the CDs were in the store, even. But then McCartney can probably afford any lawyer he wants. On the other hand, McCartney (or anyone else) HAS the right to re-record Paul Williams' compositions and make and sell CDs, provided the compositions have been officially and voluntarily released at some earlier point. (This is called the "statutory license" and was implemented in the 1910's as an "anti-trust cartel-busting" type of move by the US congress in some case involving piano rolls, IIRC.) > The new Allan Holdsworth CD-"I.O.U. Live" IS 100% OFFICIAL!!!!!!! > I don't want to hear another word about this being a f***in' bootleg!! > If Jeff wants to believe that this is a bootleg CD, let him!! > As for the rest of you, I think the facts have spoken for themselves!! > Happy listening folks!! Only speaking for myself as usual: Again, the issue not is at all settled on the basis of who owns the mechanicals ( = "wrote the songs"). As far as Allan recording an official live record, I agree, he should! I'd buy it unheard. I personally do not think I'll be hitting the stores for the "IOU BAND LIVE 1984" anytime soon. But that's just me I guess. Jens. (offline) (http://www.panix.com/~jens/) =========================================================== Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:49:58 -0700 From: tam625@hooked.net Subject: Wetton Just gotten back from L.A. saw Wetton at San Francisco May 21, San Diego May 23, and Prog. Fest. L.A. May 24. They were all great shows Wetton played Rendezvous 6.02, Thirty Years in S.F. and In The Dead Of Night at S.D. and Prog. Fest. After the S.F. show, John was asked about U.K. reforming he said they have, and have completed a new recording! Wetton, Bruford, Jobson no Holdsworth this time. John commented he has only played the tape for one critic who was so impressed that he fell to he knees and said it is the best thing Wetton has ever done. Cannot wait to hear it myself. ========================================================== Send all submissions to: dead-of-night-request@cogs.susx.ac.uk To get onto or be removed from the list: owner-dead-of-night@cogs.susx.ac.uk WWW Pages (back issues, discographies, etc): http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/ronc/itdon/itdon.html NEVER send mail to dead-of-night@cogs.susx.ac.uk! Ron Chrisley, Moderator ========================================================== End of this issue of In the Dead of Night ==========================================================